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Nov092009

Let’s shake up the NHIAA alignment of football divisions

Filed under Coaching, Fall sports, Football, General, High School Sports, Manchester Memorial High School, Memorial High School Football by bob hammerstrom at 4:43 pm

New Hampshire’s schools are currently in the process of petitioning to realign their football teams if they wish to move up or down a division. Here’s the way I see it.

First of all, why isn’t Bishop Guertin moving up to division I? School size shouldn’t make a diddly bit of difference here, since they are able to recruit top players from throughout southern New Hampshire and Massachusetts. What difference does it make it they have 500 or so less students when they can hand pick (or maybe like invite) the best from the area to come play sports?

Give Manchester West a break and move them down to division II. Bedford H.S. has stolen the bulk of their student athletes, and the west side of Manchester isn’t growing in population.

Here’s another random thought. There are already six football divisions set up by the NHIAA. Why in the world do they need three for the small schools? Is there really that much difference in the quality of the teams?

I say realign all the schools, taking away one of the divisions for the small schools, and creating a new one at the top. That way the “supersized schools” can be separated from the “smaller” big schools that have 500 to 1,000 less students like Manchester West and Concord.

Here’s the way I’d line up the top three football divisons:

Division 1 (Nashua South, Nashua North, Pinkerton, Salem, Londonderry, Manchester Central, Merrimack, Bishop Guertin, and Exeter)

Division 2 (Concord, Manchester West, Manchester Memorial, Alvirne, Timberlane, Keene, Souhegan, Plymouth, and Spaulding)

Division 3 (Dover, Winnacunnet, Milford, Bedford, Trinity, Campbell, John Stark, pembroke, and Portsmouth)

Some of those overachievers in the bottom divisions should accept the challenge of moving up. And on the flip side, teams with losing records for two or more years should drop down. Some of the schools listed here are growing in the southern part of our state. And others like Pinkerton, Londonderry and Salem are just behemoths to start with.

We’ll see soon how the petitioning from the athletic directors goes.

-Bob Hammerstrom

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Viewing 35 Comments

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    I totally agree with this proposal.

    Too bad getting the NHIAA to agree to this is akin to the NCAA developing a Div. I playoff format for college football.

    Neither is likely to happen in our life times.
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    Never happen, it makes WAY too much sense.

    As they say, "common sense ain't so common".
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    You should choose your words more carefully, they don't recruit, they attract....huge difference...but good idea on the alignment but where would you put the rest of the schools?.....you didn't put enough thought into it
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    D1: Merrimack - huh? have you seen them struggle in D2? A fair number of their better players head south to BG
    D2: Plymouth - you're kidding right? Never happen...That division would be the most geographically challenged in the state - Keene, Plymouth, Spaulding... Those bus rides would be brutal - JV/Freshman games would require kids leaving school at Noon!
    D3: Portsmouth, Winnacunnet & Dover with Campbell, Pembroke, & John Stark... I think you lose credibility here.

    Your premise of 3 divisions and shaking things up is noble and already has been discussed in other places. If someone could figure out a way to combine existing D1&D2, D3&D4, and D5&D6 into 3 groups of 18 or 20 teams that'd be a better start. The issue comes in generating a schedule and "rating system" to ensure the top 4 or 8 teams play each other in some sort of playoff. Maybe look across the border to how they do it in MA.
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    I see what you mean. After reading this proposal again it's not so easy. Especially with the freshmen & JV travel that you speak of.

    BTW, what's up with leaving Laconia out? Don't they belong in here somewhere?
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    JA--- I just tried to build on your great "super division" idea. How about this?

    Division 1 North
    Central
    Memorial
    West
    Concord
    Londonderry
    Pinkerton
    Spaulding
    Dover
    Exeter

    Division 1 South
    North
    South
    Salem
    BG
    Alvirne
    Merrimack
    Keene
    Timberlane
    Winnacunnet

    Division 2 North
    Plymouth
    Hanover
    Kennett
    Kingswood
    Laconia
    Lebanon
    Merrimack Valley
    John Stark
    Sanborn

    Division 2 South
    Monadnock
    Pembroke
    Milford
    Hollis-Brookline
    Con-Val
    Bedford
    Goffstown
    Portsmouth
    Souhegan

    Division 3 North
    Bishop Brady
    Franklin
    Kearsarge
    Gilford
    Inter-lakes
    Mascoma
    Newfound
    Newport
    Winnisquam
    Stevens

    Division 3 South
    Campbell
    Trinity
    Epping
    Pelham
    Somersworth
    St. Thomas
    Fall Mountain
    Bow
    Raymond
    Farmington

    Playoffs-
    Semi-Finals: North 1 vs. North 2
    Semi-Finals: South 1 vs. South 2
    Finals: North Div champ vs. South Div champ

    You keep all the schools regionally aligned, and for the most part, competitively aligned. In this scenario, you have 3 state champions instead of 6. I think this is a win-win for everyone. Imagine a Plymouth/Souhegan title game in the new Division 2?
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    Agree - mostly all makes sense - too much sense for the NHIAA though!

    If one could figure a way to keep the Winnacunnet & Exeter rivalry in tact that would be good too..

    You also have Merrimack listed twice
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    Whoops... didn't notice that I put Merrimack twice.

    I think what you can do is block off 11 weeks for games like they currently do--- for the 9 team divisions, you play 8 division games, 1 non-league game (like South vs. Lowell), and 1 "rivalry" game crossing the north and south divisions, which is where your Winnacunnet/Exeter game comes in. Although, it would likely be BG/Exeter in my scenario, but you get the point.

    For the 10 team divisions, just take out the non-league game and play 9 division games. I don't think they play MA teams anyways.
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    Brian1123 - Save this and make sure you present it to NHIAA. it makes more sense than any other proposal I have ever seen!
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    Umm Bob,

    Merrimack strugles in D 2. Concord is just down, they usually compete quite well in D 1. Winnacunnet is a D 2 playoff team and you want to drop them to D 3. It is very interesting that BG was terrible at football for 20 years and now that they are good everyone screams about recruiting. When BG was good at hoop in the 80's everyone complained about recruiting. hmmm
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    TRH,

    The recruiting issue doesn't come from BG 'winning' recently ('04 - '07) nearly as much as it comes from everyone knowing players in a few sports that 'arrive' at BG ('08-'09) as upperclassmen after starting their HS sports careers at other schools. That requires special paperwork thru the NHIAA so there IS documentation of it. Plus many of the boys that opted NOT to attend BG have talked about to their teammates and friends. The rules have changed in the past 2 years folks.
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    Steve you are just wrong, kids from other schools see the sucess....and guess what no one is on scholarship. All the contact is initiated by the kid...the rules haven't changed...let see how next year goes..Bg graduates at least 15 starters. The reason they have had a run is dominate freshmen classes in 03 and 07
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    Great programs attract great players... this is the same reason why a lot of girl basketball players moved to Nashua or moved in with their aunt so they could be apart of those amazing Nashua girls basketball teams. It's the same reason why families move into the Timberlane school district for wrestling. That's not recruiting, that's attracting.

    But I guess the repeated, unsubstantiated claims of recruiting is just a badge of honor that Guertin should be proud of.
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    So, let's analyze:

    Enrollmentsfor 2008:

    Pinkerton 3342
    Central 2232
    Salem 2194
    Nashua South 2158
    Memorial 2131
    Nashua North 1934
    Londonderry 1808
    Exeter 1630
    Merrimack 1540

    Why wouldn't Memorial be in DI???

    BG should be in DI based on recruiting, but a large school shouldn't move down if they play poorly.
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    So by your logic, do Trinity, Brady, and St.Thomas all move to D1 as well? After all, they "must recruit" since they're private catholic high schools. Or are you insinuating something else and would like to elaborate? Or are you just a lemming and saying something that others state without basis?

    Why single out one school? Oh yeah, those super MA athletes. Some think the roster is full of them.
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    Everyone involved with NH football intimately...as I am...knows BG recruits. And I don't know how many times I have to say this...but it's NOT illegal, they're a private school!!!!

    But facts are facts, when you do what BG does....you need to be placed in DI. Period.

    They don't recruit....they attract? Are you serious? Oh yeah...those football players are attracted to BG for its stellar academic reputation. And with all the cursing heard at BG practices, games, and scrimmages...it must be for the pure Christian values too, huh?

    And even if it was because all they do is attract....well guess what? Still, a perfect justification to move BG to D-I without even asking what their opinion is. Hell, you might be a great football player who is attracted by the coaching and legacy of a school like Plymouth or Souhegan, but if you live in Concord or Hollis....can you go bolster those programs? No, you can't.

    As far as the other private schools go...there should be no debate. Those schools can bar admission to applicants. Therefore, they should immiediately be placed one division higher than the enrollment would dictate for a public school.
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    How about putting all of these recruiting rumors to the test?
    How many football players from BG, or any other high school, go on to play in college and of those how many stepped on a football field before they entered high school?
    I know from last year's BG football squad there are 3 players who play college ball and out of those, TWO never stepped foot on a football field before freshman year.
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    your right. more than 1/2 the kids show up freshman yr and have never played. there parents send them to the school because about 98% of the kids graduate to 4 yr colleges, including schools like air force, navy, yale, harvard, etc. sports at bg are good but their not recruiting all those kids. and most of the good kids r from bedford, merrimack, and nashua, not massachussets so saying mass kids bolster the lineup is a huge lie
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    haaa, please. BG is a glorified public school. If these parents were so concerned about academics they would send their kids to a real academic school like St. Paul's or Phillips Exeter. What a joke. Most public schools are as good at placing their kids as BG...
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    Those schools cost 3x as much as BG does... what about the parents who want to see their kids every day and don't want to pay college tuition for high school?
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    well said. You should take over the name "the voice of reason." John d is delusional...
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    Hey johnjohn2
    Talk about delusional, most public schools are as good as BG? You can't be serious. Take a look some day at where the BG graduates go for college, Take a look of the %'s of BG kids going to 4 year colleges.

    Prove your recruiting charge. Why haven't some of the local reporters looked into this? People like Roger Brown and Gary Fitz have no love for BG don't you think they would try or already have looked into this. Found a kid that promises were made to but it didn't work out and wants to go public. Finally, kids have to come to them which they do at open houses (which all private schools have) no one is searching out kids to come to BG, they make it there on their own. That's not delusional it's the truth. You are probably glad about this but that's all I'll have to say because it's like knocking you head against the wall. Your opinion won't change and neither will mine.
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    so I would say there are about 200 students in a class at BG. Am I correct? Take the top 200 students in a class at any large public school such as concord or pinkerton, and 96 percent of those students are going to 4 year colleges. Because your admission test trims the fat, you have an easier time placing the whole student body. Public schools have to accept everyone. Those schools are always sending kids to ivy league or nescac type schools. Just because you go to BG doesnt give you a better chance to get into a good school. It's not like college admissions people look at BG and say "oh wow, they went to BG, real tough curriculum." That doesnt happen, now that may happen for a kid that goes to st. paul's...
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    I agree, Prove your recruiting charge!
    Based on BG's enrollment they should be in Div 3 (the smallest school in that Div). They already play up 1 division! Just because they are having a few good years you want to punish any incoming student athletes by having them face a tougher division that is 2 levels above where the enrollment is? If you are going to split the divisons by enrollment then that is the basis, if a team opts up that is their athletic directors choice you cannot force them to go up or down another division. The procedure is what it is and has been set up this way for a long time. the "good old boys" made sure of that! Stop trying to punish these kids for being good!

    The one thing that everyone seems to forget is that EVERY student at BG has to take an entrance exam and you are just a number in that exam. I have a child that graduated from public school and have a child at BG (it was their choice on schools to attend). The curriculum at BG is definitely better and each student leaving BG is prepared to enter college.

    The staff is amazing! if a student is having difficulty in a subject, the advisors and teachers set them up with a tutor right away (almost before the student realizes they need help) unlike public schools where the child has to say they are having difficulty OR the parents have to ask to get help for their child. At BG the child is treated like AND expected to act like a responsible adult. they are preparing them for life.

    I am so tired of people saying that BG recruits! Get a life people! Stop crying and just accept it, BG is made up of well rounded students and athletes. BG accepts 200 incoming freshman every year, 100 boys and 100 girls. Any transfer students in the upper grades? - I bet if you check, (most if not all of them) also applied their freshman year but didn't pass the exam. Instead of staying at public school, they worked hard and tried again because they NEW that BG would give them the academic head start that they needed for College. That is why my child is there. Sports come second to academics - even the staff at BG strictly enforces this. My child is also a VERYgood athlete that participates in multiple sports and we are lucky to be a part of the BG Family.
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    Recruiting? As written about junior & senior lacrosse/football players:

    "And you might say junior Zach Johnson of Tewksbury, Mass., a transfer from The Governor's Academy, and injured senior Tyler Violette of Amherst, who transferred from Proctor Academy, are at BG because of Cameron and his program."

    http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Q_A_UePy-Xk...

    In 2010 there are PLENTY more than in 2007-2008. Call the NHIAA and ask them for the #'s of transfers vs the rest of the NH high schools. Check next year's rosters against BG's prior JV & freshmen rosters, you'll find plenty of names that just pop up as upperclassmen or just ask the coaches at North, South and several Mass high schools where their youngs studs have disappeared to . . .
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    This was a conversation about shaking up the NHIAA football alignment until some hijacked yet another topic to once again "accuse" the program of recruiting...

    Since it still has some life and "others" seem to know so much and have been tracking these things... Quantify PLENTY and this is a football topic not lacrosse.

    Name 2 starters or even regular players in 2009 (this year) that weren't there in 2008 (last year) as JV or V players.

    Can you do the same thing for 2008 that weren't there in 2007.

    Do not include brothers of former students and children of parents who graduated from BG. Can you do it? The challenge is there. Anyone going to run with the ball? Too scared? Or do you not really know? Don't feel comfortable with names - go with uniform numbers or positions then...

    Last year's senior group had 1 high impact player who came to BG with his brother, but wasn't with the group of players that started out as Freshman. Since last year's Senior group only had 13 players (not all starters) - a good number of Juniors last year got Varsity experience and that has translated onto the field this year. Next year there will be perhaps a handful of players that have regular Varsity experience - I can think of 4 (C, QB/, TBDB, OL/DL)
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    Bill Ball called Zach Johnson 'unblockable' and a complete game-changer in FOOTBALL not lacrosse.

    PS Johnson was already a D1 committed (Maryland) athlete BEFORE arriving at BG under dubious circumstances (check around at BG, the details are widely known but shouldn't be publicly posted).

    The first issue is not whether BG attracts or recruits (after all they ARE a private school so they need to offer value), it's whether BG can then claim athletic 'poor mouth' by citing enrollment figures while attracting/recruiting a talent-rich crop of kids. No issues, just step up to D1 as that selection process more than levels the playing field to larger enrollment schools.

    The only other significant issue is going 'out of their way' to attract (recruit?) the established talent already in other high school programs (aka transfers). Take ANY 9th graders you want, heck, if you have to, take 10th graders too, but lay-off the juniors and seniors (especially from the very schools you turn around and pound on the field)..
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    BG helps, it gives you a chance at your "reach" schools. But you are right about the admission test weeding out the marginal students.....but for me after BG my college GPA was way above my BG GPA and I went to a good college. I attribute that to the basics that were given to me at BG and maybe maturing a bit
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    BG does help. As a BG Alum I can attest to that. When I was at BG, the grade system was A,B,C,F. No D's to slide a kid thru, and the grades were actual scores, no scale no bs. No pass no sports, again no bs.
    The BG acedemic discipline I received allowed me to be accepted, attend and graduate from a University I NEVER would have had an opportunity to get into had I remained in the public school system.
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    well that's your problem. Plenty of kids from public schools go on to great schools. Look at some of the nescac rosters. Filled with public school NH products...
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    For years now everyone knows that the NHIAA is nothing more than the 'good ol boys' network. not just football but all sports. There are way to many 'buddy picks', I will pick him because i am good friends with the coach or his Dad is the AD it just stinks from the top down. We need a complete overhall of NHIAA its nothing more than a 'who knows who club. As soon as they complete this years all star teams it will be very evident that its just 'business as usual with NHIAA. I have been ashamed of the for years. They have no integrity what so ever.
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    JohnJohn
    You are a hater and speak out of ignorance. Your not worth the time anymore.
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    I am just backing the public schools in this crazy argument. I speak for the general public as I am not assoc with any school. I just like watching high school football. Everything I have noticed over the years is in complete contradiction to what you are saying. BG is a great team with great athletes, they bring all the other stuff on themselves...
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    Great post, what you said is really helpful to me. I can't agree with you anymore. I have been talking with my friend about, he though it is really interesting as well. Keep up with your good work, I would come back to you.
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    Dover is going to stay in D2 and we are going to win D2 state championship. End of discussion!

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